THE drunken louts who cause trouble for themselves and others after a skinful of alcohol at the weekend may be open to subtle persuasion when sober.

But when the law of the jungle applies, usually after ten pints, a heavy handed approach is the only way to get through to many of them.

We already have schemes banning them from pubs for bad behaviour, with landlords ringing to alert each other about troublemakers.

Now the takeaway owners who are regularly terrorised after the pubs close are hitting back too.

Today we learn that late night troublemakers will be banned from takeaways in Darwen as part of a "kebabwatch" scheme being drawn up by local fast food firms.

Police today welcomed the scheme, in Darwen, and said they were hopeful of repeating it elsewhere in East Lancashire if it was a success.

In recent weeks we have learned that police and pub owners are more than willing to try new ideas in a bid to curb violence.

Handing out chocolate and lollipops to pub revellers in a good mood at the end of the night is one of the schemes already operating in East Lancashire.

But quite often those who cause trouble switch from a good mood to violence and aggression in an instant.

And basic realisations -- such as "I won't get my supper if I'm bad" -- are the only things which will get through to these people.