High-speed rail link to slash London journey time to just over an hour (From This Is Lancashire)

I would like to see some reasoning for the assertion that there will be manifold benefits from HS2. Also, once the traveller arrives by HS2 will he still find himself on a third world rail network? As usual, our lords and masters cannot see the obvious. This project is nothing more than a "big project" for government and a gift to the construction industry. We need a system which works everywhere.

Joesixpack wrote:
I would like to see some reasoning for the assertion that there will be manifold benefits from HS2. Also, once the traveller arrives by HS2 will he still find himself on a third world rail network? As usual, our lords and masters cannot see the obvious. This project is nothing more than a "big project" for government and a gift to the construction industry. We need a system which works everywhere.

The third-world network as you refer to it will be completely overhauled over the next four years. The Manchester to Preston line will be electrified, the Wigan to Liverpool line will be electrified, the Preston to Blackpool line will be electrified.
As for rolling stock, the 1980's "Pacer" trains will all be taken out of service by 2016, all of them. They are to be replaced by newer electric models.

2032! Seems a long way off! The railways need an overhaul. Problem is that privatization has resulted in passengers being ripped off by rail operators. These fast trains will be good so long as the average commuter can afford them. No point laying lines if they will serve businessmen and women only! By 2032 they would be flying into London!

it might cut the times.but it will cost more to use.

This is great news. I am so pleased as a regular traveller to London. 1 hour + is massively different to the current 2 hours 15 mins. To be honest it will be as quick as some outer London commutes into central London, making living further away from the smoke a bit more possible. Great idea. Hurrah!

This just further encourages people to get themselves stupid commutes rather than seek work in their own towns or neighbouring cities.

MCR to Euston is currently approx 2 hours:9 mins

The Manchester to London journey will take one hour and eight minutes.

Are we really expected to believe one hour will be taken off the Mcr - London journey?

Puffin-Billy wrote:
MCR to Euston is currently approx 2 hours:9 mins

The Manchester to London journey will take one hour and eight minutes.

Are we really expected to believe one hour will be taken off the Mcr - London journey?

Yep!!!

The Dutch have just completed a fast rail link about a year ago and its cut the time between Amsterdam and Rotterdam by 45 minutes and between Amsterdam and Breda by 50 minutes and now the international service between Amsterdam and Brussels is now quicker by 1hr 5 minutes and to Paris is now quicker by almost 90 minutes!!! Even Deutsche Bahn are looking to introduce direct links between Germany, The Netherlands and UK via the Tunnel - making a trip between Amsterdam and London calling at Schipol, Rotterdam, Antwerp, Brussels and Paris being only 4 hours - now imagine if they were allowed to extend up to Manchester via HS2 - just over 5 hour journey!! (But a side note if we leave the EU we can say goodbye to any international links coming from Manchester thus disrupting commerce!!!)

It shows it can be done!

As for rolling stock on other lines, why do we have to suffer London's castoffs yet again - why cant we have new rolling stock???
Recently the dutch extended a line from Amsterdam to Lelystad and now operates thorugh to Zwolle and the rolling stock has been replaced by all new ones.

Before anyone mentions that Dutch railways are still a nationalised service - no they are not! There are 3 train operating companies (NS, Arriva and another one), one company that cleans the trains, one company that looks after the tracks and stations and lets not forget all the knock on companies all looking for profit!!!

Puffin-Billy wrote:
MCR to Euston is currently approx 2 hours:9 mins

The Manchester to London journey will take one hour and eight minutes.

Are we really expected to believe one hour will be taken off the Mcr - London journey?

Currently Virgin's trains are capped at 125mph, the new trains will be able to go up to 250mph.

Unfortunately too many posters have fallen into the propaganda trap. If the aim is to 'boost' the economy in the North, why make it so easy to get to London. This is the French experience - the inhabitants of Lyon especially were won over by 'how easy it would be for Businessman to get to Lyon' - unfortunately the businessman / civil servants etc all said - well look how easy it is for you to get to Paris. Sorry Boltonians -- come 20 years time the centralisation will be completed. It'll look very pretty, but at current prices it'll be a £500 day return for the 7:30 from Manchester, returning at 17:00

Two words "White Elephant"

Babbar Divino wrote:
Two words "White Elephant"

In what way - it works in other countries so why not here?

BWFC71 wrote:

Babbar Divino wrote:
Two words "White Elephant"

In what way - it works in other countries so why not here?

What government can plan for 19 years in the future and predict a £32.7 billion cost?

The only jobs that will be created here are in Whitehall where they will conduct feasibility study after feasibility study until they decide that they can't afford it and people wouldn't really use the link as it would be too expensive and our working habits in 19 years will have changed with people working more from home, video conferencing negating the need to travel for a lot of people. Money would be better spent putting in fibre optic everywhere from Lands End to John O'Groats.

thealexweb wrote:

Joesixpack wrote:
I would like to see some reasoning for the assertion that there will be manifold benefits from HS2. Also, once the traveller arrives by HS2 will he still find himself on a third world rail network? As usual, our lords and masters cannot see the obvious. This project is nothing more than a "big project" for government and a gift to the construction industry. We need a system which works everywhere.

The third-world network as you refer to it will be completely overhauled over the next four years. The Manchester to Preston line will be electrified, the Wigan to Liverpool line will be electrified, the Preston to Blackpool line will be electrified.
As for rolling stock, the 1980's "Pacer" trains will all be taken out of service by 2016, all of them. They are to be replaced by newer electric models.

And Bolton will be bypassed.

A crumbling town centre and a station which is no more than a halt on a minor line.

Some points to consider.How often will this train run from Bolton to London?How many people would travel from Bolton to London in a day or week say?How many carriages are going to be used?To spend billions to get a few people to their destination afew minutes earlier seems to me like bad economics.Take a look at the motorways of England,you can travel at a high rate of speed then when you reach the end of the motarway you are usually impeded with congested local roads.This could quite possibly happen with high speed rail.One last point,this mode of travel will not be cheap.In my humble opinion not many people wil be using this system.

this service will not get off the ground.

temujin wrote:

thealexweb wrote:

Joesixpack wrote:
I would like to see some reasoning for the assertion that there will be manifold benefits from HS2. Also, once the traveller arrives by HS2 will he still find himself on a third world rail network? As usual, our lords and masters cannot see the obvious. This project is nothing more than a "big project" for government and a gift to the construction industry. We need a system which works everywhere.

The third-world network as you refer to it will be completely overhauled over the next four years. The Manchester to Preston line will be electrified, the Wigan to Liverpool line will be electrified, the Preston to Blackpool line will be electrified.
As for rolling stock, the 1980's "Pacer" trains will all be taken out of service by 2016, all of them. They are to be replaced by newer electric models.

And Bolton will be bypassed.

A crumbling town centre and a station which is no more than a halt on a minor line.

You clearly no absolutely nothing about how the trains system is currently being reorganised, every train on the Manchester to Preston line stops at Bolton, none miss it out. The Bolton to London direct service starts in 2016. From Bolton you can get direct services to Wigan and Southport, Blackburn and Clitheroe, Blackpool North and Preston and all the Manchester stations.

I forgot the names of a few more terminus stations that you can get to direct from Bolton, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Buxton / Rochdale.

MarkAllRead wrote:
This just further encourages people to get themselves stupid commutes rather than seek work in their own towns or neighbouring cities.

Or rather it further widens the jobs market to those with specific qualifications / skills sets. If they have someone walk in front of the lead train waving a flag would that suit you more?

macauley wrote:
it might cut the times.but it will cost more to use.

DOH!!!!!

Bolton will see no benefit. I'm in Farnworth and even if the trains are on time it takes me 50 mins to an hour just to get to Piccadilly. HS2 won't be ready till 2033 at the earliest and I will be an OAP then!. Manchester as usual sees all the benefit in this scheme. What we in Bolton need are more direct destinations without changing at Manchester or Wigan. I would like to see Bolton have a direct train service to Liverpool and Leeds for example.

Babbar Divino wrote:

BWFC71 wrote:

Babbar Divino wrote:
Two words "White Elephant"

In what way - it works in other countries so why not here?

What government can plan for 19 years in the future and predict a £32.7 billion cost?

The only jobs that will be created here are in Whitehall where they will conduct feasibility study after feasibility study until they decide that they can't afford it and people wouldn't really use the link as it would be too expensive and our working habits in 19 years will have changed with people working more from home, video conferencing negating the need to travel for a lot of people. Money would be better spent putting in fibre optic everywhere from Lands End to John O'Groats.

The Government like their play on words and try to make something more expensive than what it really is.

The Government (no matter which is in power) use the term billion. In fact this is wrong in the UK, as the billion they state is a US billion which is less than a UK billion. It was stated sometime in early 20th Century that Parliament would adopt the US billion so not to confuse our American counsins.

In fact the whole cost of HS2 is actually £32,700,000,000 and not
£32,700,000,000,000


Its like when they talk about the UK defecit and they talk about trillions - guess what? It isn't trillions - again they are using the Us number and not the UK number. The US trillion is 1,000,000,000,000 whereas a true UK trillion is 1,000,000,000,000,00
0,000. So our debt is nowhere near as bad as people think!!!

Reality50 wrote:
Bolton will see no benefit. I'm in Farnworth and even if the trains are on time it takes me 50 mins to an hour just to get to Piccadilly. HS2 won't be ready till 2033 at the earliest and I will be an OAP then!. Manchester as usual sees all the benefit in this scheme. What we in Bolton need are more direct destinations without changing at Manchester or Wigan. I would like to see Bolton have a direct train service to Liverpool and Leeds for example.

You are getting on at a minor station, therefore you only get stopper trains. From 2017 onwards your station will be served by four car electrified trains and will stop at Victoria and then carry on to Piccadilly and the Airport using new electrified line.

Reality50 wrote:
Bolton will see no benefit. I'm in Farnworth and even if the trains are on time it takes me 50 mins to an hour just to get to Piccadilly. HS2 won't be ready till 2033 at the earliest and I will be an OAP then!. Manchester as usual sees all the benefit in this scheme. What we in Bolton need are more direct destinations without changing at Manchester or Wigan. I would like to see Bolton have a direct train service to Liverpool and Leeds for example.

We used to have a direct link to Liverpool but that changed when Liverpool made their local services all electric and as such Kirkby is the cut off point of the 3rd Rail trains, so unfortunately we have no direct connection anymore - thus may change in the future as electrication of rail lines increases. Why would anyone want to go to teh foreign country of Yorkshire???? Leeds ha never been a direct service from Bolton and to be fair I honestly do not think there is the custom for a service, unlike Manchester. We have direct trains to Blackpool, The Lakes, Glasgow, Manchester Airport, Chester, Stockport and Rochdale - again with electification thsi could open up new routes and destinations - even when they build the new curve between Salford Central and Deansgate that could open up new routes as well - its coming just give it time, as unlike our cousins on mainland Europe, we take our time in these building schemes!!!

Reality50 wrote:
Bolton will see no benefit. I'm in Farnworth and even if the trains are on time it takes me 50 mins to an hour just to get to Piccadilly. HS2 won't be ready till 2033 at the earliest and I will be an OAP then!. Manchester as usual sees all the benefit in this scheme. What we in Bolton need are more direct destinations without changing at Manchester or Wigan. I would like to see Bolton have a direct train service to Liverpool and Leeds for example.

It doesn't take 50 minutes to get from Farnworth to Piccadilly on the train!

it takes about 20 minutes between Farnworth and Piccadilly!

BWFC71 wrote:
it takes about 20 minutes between Farnworth and Piccadilly!

Which is less than half the time the bus takes even with the current generation of trains from the 80's.

truth is there are many people who commte to London quite a few days a week. I go at least 3 times a week. Shaving 60 minutes off the time will be a godsend, as it means I will leave later and get home earlier.

Some may say then why don't I take a plane. Once I have gone through all the checks and then waited around to board and then at the other end which could be either heathrow or gatwick I then have a further travelling time to get to London itself before the travel time to get to my destination. Whereas the train takes me direct to London and no hassle of check-ins or extra travelling time!!!

I'm done with the laughing hysterically at this project, now I am just getting angrier at the stupidity of people who are embracing this dead horse.

This is an expensive disaster... take a look at the current state of the rail system and figure out for yourself what is about to happen.

The high speed link is a toy for the big cheeses that can afford it. I PMSL at the "Oooooh it takes an hour off the time it takes to get to London."

Just how many in our society will be able to afford a ticket on the current system over the next few years let alone travel on the high speed link?

This is going to be very costly to travel on, another debt bringer to the already massive economic bill of the UK.

The money would be better spent on the ailing NHS, pensions (that have been robbed silly) and a whole shaboodle of much worthier investments into the infrastructure of this country such as the blinking flaming f'ked up roads!

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
RRRRRRRRR! I FUME!

And another thing...

The gooberment say that nobody even those who live in the path of the high speed rail link will get in the way of it being built... very very dangerous words!

Beyond News Forum wrote:
I'm done with the laughing hysterically at this project, now I am just getting angrier at the stupidity of people who are embracing this dead horse. This is an expensive disaster... take a look at the current state of the rail system and figure out for yourself what is about to happen. The high speed link is a toy for the big cheeses that can afford it. I PMSL at the "Oooooh it takes an hour off the time it takes to get to London." Just how many in our society will be able to afford a ticket on the current system over the next few years let alone travel on the high speed link? This is going to be very costly to travel on, another debt bringer to the already massive economic bill of the UK. The money would be better spent on the ailing NHS, pensions (that have been robbed silly) and a whole shaboodle of much worthier investments into the infrastructure of this country such as the blinking flaming f'ked up roads! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRR! I FUME!

bet tesco had dead horses as big as this.

It takes 50 minutes minimum and sometimes 70 minutes from Farnworth to Piccadilly. I have to get a bus from Highfield to Farnworth and walk to Farnworth rail station and then have to change trains at Salford Crescent to get a train to Piccadilly. There is always at least a 10-15 minute wait at SC. I would rather Farnworth stopping trains went to Piccadilly rather than Victoria. As for Leeds I disagree. Leeds is the second most high profile city in the North and is a gateway to cities like York and Newcastle. A direct train to Leeds would be well used and if it stopped at Bradford too it would benefit the Asian community as many Bolton Asians have relatives in West Yorkshire.

Reality50 wrote:
It takes 50 minutes minimum and sometimes 70 minutes from Farnworth to Piccadilly. I have to get a bus from Highfield to Farnworth and walk to Farnworth rail station and then have to change trains at Salford Crescent to get a train to Piccadilly. There is always at least a 10-15 minute wait at SC. I would rather Farnworth stopping trains went to Piccadilly rather than Victoria. As for Leeds I disagree. Leeds is the second most high profile city in the North and is a gateway to cities like York and Newcastle. A direct train to Leeds would be well used and if it stopped at Bradford too it would benefit the Asian community as many Bolton Asians have relatives in West Yorkshire.

Piccadilly doesn't have the capacity for all the trains yet (they will build two new platforms in the next few years) so less important trains have no choice but to go to Victoria. They are also building track that with directly connect Victoria and Piccadilly so eventually all trains will stop at both :)

BWFC71 wrote:

Babbar Divino wrote:

BWFC71 wrote:

Babbar Divino wrote:
Two words "White Elephant"

In what way - it works in other countries so why not here?

What government can plan for 19 years in the future and predict a £32.7 billion cost?

The only jobs that will be created here are in Whitehall where they will conduct feasibility study after feasibility study until they decide that they can't afford it and people wouldn't really use the link as it would be too expensive and our working habits in 19 years will have changed with people working more from home, video conferencing negating the need to travel for a lot of people. Money would be better spent putting in fibre optic everywhere from Lands End to John O'Groats.

The Government like their play on words and try to make something more expensive than what it really is.

The Government (no matter which is in power) use the term billion. In fact this is wrong in the UK, as the billion they state is a US billion which is less than a UK billion. It was stated sometime in early 20th Century that Parliament would adopt the US billion so not to confuse our American counsins.

In fact the whole cost of HS2 is actually £32,700,000,000 and not
£32,700,000,000,000



Its like when they talk about the UK defecit and they talk about trillions - guess what? It isn't trillions - again they are using the Us number and not the UK number. The US trillion is 1,000,000,000,000 whereas a true UK trillion is 1,000,000,000,000,00

0,000. So our debt is nowhere near as bad as people think!!!

Thank God for that. And there I was worried about borrowing. Blow me down with a feather. I'll sleep a lot better tonight now. Still "white elephant" and will never happen.

Babbar Divino wrote:

BWFC71 wrote:

Babbar Divino wrote:

BWFC71 wrote:

Babbar Divino wrote:
Two words "White Elephant"

In what way - it works in other countries so why not here?

What government can plan for 19 years in the future and predict a £32.7 billion cost?

The only jobs that will be created here are in Whitehall where they will conduct feasibility study after feasibility study until they decide that they can't afford it and people wouldn't really use the link as it would be too expensive and our working habits in 19 years will have changed with people working more from home, video conferencing negating the need to travel for a lot of people. Money would be better spent putting in fibre optic everywhere from Lands End to John O'Groats.

The Government like their play on words and try to make something more expensive than what it really is.

The Government (no matter which is in power) use the term billion. In fact this is wrong in the UK, as the billion they state is a US billion which is less than a UK billion. It was stated sometime in early 20th Century that Parliament would adopt the US billion so not to confuse our American counsins.

In fact the whole cost of HS2 is actually £32,700,000,000 and not
£32,700,000,000,000




Its like when they talk about the UK defecit and they talk about trillions - guess what? It isn't trillions - again they are using the Us number and not the UK number. The US trillion is 1,000,000,000,000 whereas a true UK trillion is 1,000,000,000,000,00


0,000. So our debt is nowhere near as bad as people think!!!

Thank God for that. And there I was worried about borrowing. Blow me down with a feather. I'll sleep a lot better tonight now. Still "white elephant" and will never happen.

Sorry to forgot to mention yes I do recognise a billion as a thousand million.

boost the economy? the only way to do that is to get rid of cameron and his crew.

macauley wrote:
boost the economy? the only way to do that is to get rid of cameron and his crew.

And you think Labour would do any better, when it comes to the economy a conservative government is always better. It's the meddling Lib Dems watering things down that is the problem.

Appalling waste of money, by 2032 the march of technology will have moved so far on and the way business works will mean the need for this type of travelling and needing such links will be redundant. The cost of building such a monstrosity (that by the way will be outdated technology by the time of its completion) is criminal, if it was to be completed in 2-5 years time, fine, but it is not and it will heap yet more woe upon the public purse.
No one has given any thought whatsoever to the fact in 19 years time travel anywhere may be dammed near impossible due to the cost for the majority of people and the successful type of business are not renowned for wasting cash ferrying about minions when a Pc or smart phone does the job.

2032 completion date ( if not delayed ) ???
whats the point ? surely we will have teleporters by then ?

hoboh2o wrote:
Appalling waste of money, by 2032 the march of technology will have moved so far on and the way business works will mean the need for this type of travelling and needing such links will be redundant. The cost of building such a monstrosity (that by the way will be outdated technology by the time of its completion) is criminal, if it was to be completed in 2-5 years time, fine, but it is not and it will heap yet more woe upon the public purse.
No one has given any thought whatsoever to the fact in 19 years time travel anywhere may be dammed near impossible due to the cost for the majority of people and the successful type of business are not renowned for wasting cash ferrying about minions when a Pc or smart phone does the job.

25 years ago, they were saying the exact same thing, 100 years ago they were saying the exact same thing, even 150 years ago they were saying the exact same thing.

Efficiency and styles may improve, speed may increase but humanity basically doesn't change - meetings will still be required, travel and commuting will still be required - not all work can be done at home, via ISDL. In fact the majority of work has to be done in offices due to company regulations or even the law!!! Yes meetings cann be done by video but the majority of meetings are still face to face - just as it has been for hundreds of years and that is not changing fast. There are other work related matters which needs on site presence and will continue to do so.

This is my eyes will be an advantage. Every major recession we have had we have recovered through projects like this - basically getting people in work, create wages and then spending happens and the countries finances recover. Forget the nimby's. If they had their way then we wouldn't ahve had the raialways, canals, motorways or even airports!!!

Where is the money coming from?
I thought the country was skint !
Lets face it at £1000 a ticket (report from Thursdays news) who is going to pay this to get from Manchester to London a hour or so sooner?
Yep that's correct folks the tax payer.
So the MPs get a nice shiny train and its very own track to and from work.
And we the British public get to foot the bill.
We are such lucky door mats.
Don't forget though "we are all in this together"

Willow311 wrote:
Where is the money coming from?
I thought the country was skint !
Lets face it at £1000 a ticket (report from Thursdays news) who is going to pay this to get from Manchester to London a hour or so sooner?
Yep that's correct folks the tax payer.
So the MPs get a nice shiny train and its very own track to and from work.
And we the British public get to foot the bill.
We are such lucky door mats.
Don't forget though "we are all in this together"

The main crux of this is that the main intercity's will be taken off the antequated Victorian built main line, thus opening up the Victorian bult line to more local traffic and more evenly spaced than at present. In other words it means that there will be more trains which also means more carriages and more seats!!!!

At this moment Bolton has 3 trains from Manchester Airport, but due to the problem with the 20 minute London Service it means that all of Airport-Bolton services are within the first 25 minutes of every hour. When the new line opens it actually means that teh 20 minure airport service can be re-instated.